SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Just thinking about some stuff recently ... cheating can cause a lot of pain, disrupt a family, even cost the WS financially (especially in the case of a divorce), but these are all family-related or personal consequences. There are very few if any social consequences - they don't lose their job. They don't lose family or friends (most of the time). There are no legal ramifications at all.

What put this in my mind was reading about someone in the news who recently died. He was born out of an affair, and he fathered a child from an affair of his own, and yet he is lauded for all his great accomplishments (some of which admittedly did a lot of good for a great many people). Cheaters become politicians (even President!), CEOs, religious leaders. Many have lead movements for social change and done good philanthropy. They win awards, accrue wealth and fame. The pain they caused their families is ignored in the face of these other accomplishments.

This makes me wonder if we're all overreacting to what is essentially human nature. There are entire cultures built around having sex or even a relationship outside the marriage, not to mention those that are polygamous or polyandrous. Are we all suffering betrayal trauma because we've been inculcated with an unrealistic expectation of monogamy? Would it be emotionally healthier to build a society without this expectation?

[This message edited by NoThanksForTheMemories at 11:39 PM, Thursday, February 19th]

NoThanksForTheMemories, I think that's a perspective and a very biased one from the people who instead of facing their broken identity or moral compass, promote their flaw as to restore their broken ego, low self worth and get validation for their behavior.

First of all society.

- Society like this is an abstraction. What truly makes "society"? People.
- What are people? Humans, social animals
- What do social animals do? They form groups, it's for survival, stability

So what is the building block of this? It is the smallest possible unit that is the foundation of it all.

The Family.

A Man, a Woman (but this is exactly valid also for non heterosexual couples, is a human need) and their offspring.
Give it a couple of iterations and you have a generational families, from the grandparents to grandkids.

Put many families together and you have a tribe, a community.
Many communities form then cities, nations, states and federations.

That's how society is built. It starts from the family.
The foundation is the feeling of trust and loyalty between 2 people, the rest follows.

That's also why in totalitarian dictatorship that very bond is often under attack, breaking the family breaks the foundation of human connection and leaves people isolated and vulnerable, controllable.

Is only partially a deviation, because is part of the reason why monogamy and honest loving unions are presented as obsolete or stupid, almost shameful.

- Because those who promote this view are douchebags
- Because breaking honest emotional unions grants power to the very same douchebags
- People broken by betrayal (WS and BS) are a source for profit, manipulation, acting as a free radical in spreading the chaos

What you see rewarded is often a self referential circle, to make the narrative acceptable from top down.

Think about who many of those "successful cheaters" were? Usually not the cool kids. Not the guys who "got laid" or were popular. Many were having serious issues with low self worth, even those who had the edge of wealth often were outclassed by other more confident, with less issues.

They might had FOO who pressured them to "become someone". They had to people please expectations. They tried to fit the bill of external validation. Including forming families, marrying up etc.

And at some point they got ahead. Now they have options and they can use them. So the low self worth can now be soothed by external validation. They cheat. And they are now in an environment that celebrates their social success not their moral breakage (because many from those are exactly the same).

Others "get there" by breaking their moral compass beforehand. They lie, steal, drop any kind of honesty to get ahead. ANd they succeed. What did they learn? Cheating in life pays off. So of course cheating in relationship is acceptable to their broken morals.

DOes that make it good or encourageable? No, it does not.

I am no cheater and I am a CEO. Know what I think of people who betrayed their partners? I can use them for what they can be squeezed of, that is practicality. But I have no trust in them, zero. If they betrayed their partner or children, what ever would stop these people to do the same to my or my company?

Nothing, they might not lose the job or position outright (however a replacement is on top of my list if lines up), but they sure lost credibility and trust.

You may not see the consequences but there are for sure.
And I know many executive and business people, who are loyal to their spouses, utterly. They do not trust traitors. In this world trust is a very valuable currency.

Politics... well is the business of liars. How many politicians do you truly trust? The honest ones I know of are not at the top, you need to have skeletons in the wardrobe if you want to get up, or else nobody knows your "price".

I have few "friends" in those areas, but I would not trust them with my wallet. And yes cheating is very common there, surprise surprise.

You know what is human nature? The one we see everyday and all our instincts are wired to.
Finding and protecting the people you love, like they are an extension of you.

You friends, your family your partners.
That is stability.

I am not aware of how many cultures built around polygamy ever survived long enough to be recorded in history. Diseases, the devastating effects that infidelity and betrayal carry inside, made sure if there were some, they got wiped out of existence.

Polygamy was always the "privilege" of tyrants, leaders, people who never considered loving relationships as part of their lives (or very rarely), but as a transactional or often political or power display tool.

Some religions allow it, but infidelity is still a taboo. It is so strongly ingrained in humanity that adultery and infidelity were historically mostly punished by death.

Is not about morality only, also about disease prevention and survival of the species.

I think what you see on the media circus is more of a projection, a self referential circle jerk of douchebags trying to soothe their own issues by making it the standard. Way easier than to resolve their broken egos as they have the tools to indulge into hedonism and get away with it.

I do think there is a social disincentive to cheat…and I also do think (not to excuse or normalize) it is fairly common albeit incredible painful behavior.

I know that there are many people who know of my husbands A who think differently of him now. And me, for staying.

I wish the A had never had happened, but it is what fwh have chosen to do to heal from it that has made a better marriage for us.

I have some thoughts, I’ll start with 3 points:

1) There’s an old saying, "a good man can’t be elected president."

2) If you peruse online forums, you’ll often see in response to threads about billionaires, people saying things like, "If I had that kind of money I’d…" then it’s usually followed by something altruistic and philanthropic.

3) There is a reason some of the biggest philanthropists in the world, are women who divorced billionaire husbands. Melinda Gates & MacKenzie Scott come to mind.

The opportunity we have in life, has its strongest predictors in when we are born, where we are born, and who our parents are. Certainly one of the strongest predictors of what we will do in our lives, is tied to our personality. Most notably, our empathy and selflessness. The world is, always has been, and always will be, filled with self-serving sociopaths. They will "achieve" (though I hate to use that word in this context) the most in life. The reason is simple, they lack compunction. To use people for their own personal, political or financial gain is as natural to them as breathing.

The same reason people with empathy will never become billionaires, or have a much harder time being elected president - or even into politics in the first place, is the same reason people with those qualities will always be taken advantage of by those who lack those qualities. It’s a decision we all have to make. Do I value power, money and influence more than I value the inherent rights of other people… for me, it’s a resounding "No!" I will always choose less advantage if the cost of that advantage is the subjugation of my fellow human beings.

There are always exceptions to the rule. But this is the heart and soul of it. Humans by and large celebrate achievement, and often their character gets put on the back burner. However, when you look at a persons life I think it’s important to look at all of it, and their capacity to learn and grow. This is why I have, generally, respect for the waywards on this board - they recognize harm, and are seeking (through much pain) to learn and change. That’s admirable.

Let’s detour and look at some notable examples, you already mentioned Jesse Jackson:

- Martin Luther King: one of the greatest leaders of human beings to ever live. A beautiful message of character, inclusion and justice. But what justice did his wife feel I wonder? He was a notorious philanderer and a serial cheater.

- ***edited: One of the youngest presidents in US history. Books have been written about the questionable "good" his administration has done, and the many mistakes made. Largely he was revered, but again, a serial cheater.

- Charles Dickens: one of the world’s great authors. He had a long-term affair with an actress

- Winston Churchill: numerous affairs

- Frank Sinatra: innumerable affairs to each of his wives

- Mahatma Ghandi: numerous affairs including perhaps younger family members.

So, people are complex. But the ability to use others for your own personal gain has always been a power tool for those willing to do so. If you want to rise in politics or notoriety, being the kind of person who is willing to use others is a definite advantage.

Human nature? I don’t know what that is. We each are given the ability to choose. Will we choose less ambition, less outward accomplishment if it means treating others with respect? Or will we stand on the head of a drowning man to keep our own heads above water? There is no inherent nature that I can see - only decisions we each make for ourselves.

1) They say a good man can’t be elected president because the willingness to use others and dodge accountability are not traits found in good people.

2) The reason those people will never be billionaire philanthropists is because they’ll never be billionaires. Not because they lack intelligence and hard work ethic, but because they will not use people the way that’s required to make that kind of money.

3) The biggest philanthropists are those who either inherit substantial wealth, or are good people who divorce wealthy people and get large settlements. Bezos’s ex-wife is giving away vast sums of money. He continues to pay his employees peanuts while treating them like garbage. There’s a reason he made the billions, and she did not.

People are largely relieved when they see their own behavior mirrored in that of celebrities, politicians or others of public note. However, that does not equate to justification for such behavior. The only question that matters, is what kind of life do you want to live, and what are you willing to do to get it? For me, I will take humility, respect and integrity over everything else. I will never hurt others to achieve my goals, if that means I "achieve" less in life, so be it. I suffered betrayal trauma because it struck to the core of the values which constitute my soul. Not because I’m swimming against the current of human nature.

[This message edited by justsendit at 2:26 AM, Friday, February 20th]

NTFTM,

From time immemorial, powerful people, mostly men, have been getting away with infidelity without paying much of a social cost. You could also say that there is less of a social cost paid by powerful adulterers today than before, but there still exists a social disincentive to infidelity for most of us. Think back to the Coldplay concert debacle.

You ask some fascinating questions that I will think about more.

I can only say that over the last many years I have had to decide a lot about my values concerning monogamy.

I don’t want to get religious here, but the foundation of what I have come to believe is intertwined in all of this. I believe the Ten Commandments are not about heaven or hell but the top things that can steal gigantic parts of your life, rob you of your ability to feel a higher range of emotions. In this sense it makes life heaven or hell, because in al honesty the less chaos you have in your life the more you can devote to more spiritually enriching things.

I think in terms of social reward or consequence, it has a limited shelf life. Meaning, I don’t think that there is much you can do outside of true criminal activity that you should have to live a life sentence over. Rev Jackson definitely had his fall from grace when that came out publicly. It’s just back in those times we didn’t have 24 hour a dday news and social media. Clinton was more in a period where we were transitioning more towards those things and while he still can boast some good things surrounding his presidency, let’s face it the name Monica Lewinsky follows him even today. And it used to be a scandal like that would kick you out of the presidency race (remember Gary Hart?) but now a days our president can have allegations of paying porn stars off to not talk about an affair and it doesn’t seem to rock the world the same as it used to. I am not trying to be political or invoke a political discussion, I am really just trying to throw examples out of how society has overall just gotten very jaded when we are constantly inundated with all this news and social media.

So back to what I personally have learned about monogamy over the years before my affair and after.

I have been in a non monogamous relationship. In fact it was with my husband while we were dating. We went the whole route of challenging the concept and over a period of time I found it really detrimental to my mental health, sense of self worth, and I asked we close the relationship.

And of course I have had an affair as well a couple decades later. Both things make me feel shame, regret, I don’t have positive feelings about either time. I think as humans we are as monogamous by nature as much as we are complicated individuals. I can say that having a monogamous relationship provides not only stability and pair bonding, but it takes out a lot of chaos and drama and even vanity out of sex and the relationship as a whole.

Most of us need to feel like the primary love interest to your mate and be protected from diseases, outside emotional entanglements, and know that we are enough for someone. I believe part of our purpose is to learn to love and to remove our own obstacles from giving and receiving it. Infidelity (or non-monogamy) to me is a lesson that comes with natural consequences even if it isn’t forbidden within a relationship.

In nature there are many animals that are monogamous because that how they are built. A swan who loses its mate will fly very high and dive to its death. Osprey build their nest together and share all domestic work. We are designed for monogamy and while not everyone has to practice it, I think at some point not practicing comes consequences. I have known many people in "the lifestyle" and some of them are still happily married twenty five years later. A lot of them left it at some point, and for the majority it destroyed their relationship.

I do think the sting of monogamy is less about affair but more about not knowing one’s reality. The betrayal. The lies. The inconsideration. But one can have a non monogamous have sex with another person without that being the result. But it increases the risks of something going wrong and can still be detrimental to the soul nonetheless.

[This message edited by hikingout at 10:04 PM, Thursday, February 19th]

I think you’re on to something. I don’t think the human condition, similar to other mammals, is conducive to longterm monogamy. I believe it takes work to ignore natural instincts. Monogamy and marriage itself is a social construct mostly stemming from a man wanting to have some sort of assurance that offspring are indeed his and for the woman to make sure he supports said offspring. It was mostly a business arrangement more than love in the beginning. For me, a lot of it still is although love can and is also present in my marriage. All that being said, I don’t believe it’s a license to cheat. If you participate in the social norm of marriage you’re promising fidelity even when it’s hard or your instincts tempt you. And before anyone comes at me with "I never wanted or have cheated" I get that. My opinion is based on statistics and observing all mammals. It doesn’t mean I think all people will or want to cheat. Some people have stronger morals and character to stick it out even when it’s hard.

Please keep in mind the very first guideline for this site:

NO POLITICS: We have zero tolerance of discussing politics. There is to be NO mention of political names, and absolutely no political topic content in any context. Violation of this guideline results in losing your posting privileges.

Especially "There is to be NO mention of political names"

There are several violations of this guideline already in this thread and Moderators have been noted.
It would make our job easier if those that have posted NAMES that have a political relevance (including past presidents, dead or alive) would edit their posts, but otherwise expect Mods to do so and possibly send guideline-breach warnings to the relevant posters.

I don’t believe humans are "naturally" monogamous.

Just doesn’t comport with natural selection, survival of the fittest, etc. Multiple partners increase the chance of reproduction, and the resulting genetic diversity increases the chances of some offspring surviving.

So why are some animals monogamous? Well, they’re not, actually. DNA testing of cygnets in the nest, for example, reveals multiple fathers.

So why have humans tended toward monogamy?

Humans have some unique problems to solve. Our children need care for a long time. Women, especially pregnant women, need protection and care. Men don’t want to raise other men’s children.

So our big brains came up with monogamy, and marriage, and ceremonies, etc. as a way to solve these problems. Lots of compromises.

And it’s not just individuals. Societies, too, have an interest. We don’t want to pay for, or be responsible for, other people’s children, more likely to happen as a result of infidelity.

In old testament days, adulterers were stoned to death. Adultery was considered an offense against the community, and the community participated in the punishment.

So, why does there seem to be a trend away from monogamy now? Maybe, as suggested, offenders are anxious to normalize their behavior. Maybe we are tending toward our natural state of promiscuity. Especially as modern, liberal societies take on more and more responsibilities previously fulfilled by intact families.

Is the pain of infidelity driven by our dna, and thus hard to change, or societal training, and thus easier to change?

Hard to say, but we’re going to find out soon. Young people today, it seems to me, already have very different expectations of relationships (situationships?) than my generation did.

Thank you for all the interesting perspectives so far. I look forward to more! These are tough philosophical questions that have been on my mind recently.

A quick note to the mods that I removed the one name from my post.

Also I edited a bit to add that many famous people who cheat have also done good things for society. It's easy to vilify people with power or success as having all the negative traits of a cheater, but there are many who have made a positive difference in people's lives, too (as justsendit pointed out in more detail, though I don't know if the examples will be allowed to stay).

People are indeed complicated. Life-saving doctors, genius-level scientists and artists, essential workers - these are all valuable people who contribute positively to society. Many of them also cheat on their spouses. I don't think stoning them to death or throwing them in jail is a net benefit! Maybe monogamy isn't the root of the issue so much as the expectation of life-long fidelity?

There are entire cultures built around having sex or even a relationship outside the marriage, not to mention those that are polygamous or polyandrous. Are we all suffering betrayal trauma because we've been inculcated with an unrealistic expectation of monogamy? Would it be emotionally healthier to build a society without this expectation?

Great Discussion, my take is anything done within the M, or a culture, that is agreed upon is not a betrayal or cheating. The problem is the lying, hiding, and sneaking around. People walk out of banks with money all the time, but if someone walks out with money after committing fraud, That's the problem the fraud.

It's well known here in Dallas the owner of the Cowboys ran around with a lot of women. Was he cheating? Did his W look the other way? Not sure of their agreement, but he didn't work very hard hiding it.