SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I want to give a woman's pov on the idea that sexual attraction and physical intimacy is prerequisite to love. For me, it's the opposite. I need to feel an emotional connection, emotional intimacy, emotional safety before I can connect physically/sexually.

On average it tends to be this way. Women mainly feel safety and connection through emotional intimacy first. Men mainly connect through physical intimacy (emotional follows).

It took me about 2 weeks from the time my H returned from a deployment to feel emotionally connected enough to want to have sex with him, even after years of being in a relationship. Every time he left, that connection was broken for me. It had to be rebuilt before I felt comfortable (safe?) enough for sex.

I never experienced this with her, for the entirety of the long distance relationship. She too needs to feel emotionally connected before getting physical. I need to think about this.

Wrt your WW having you for sex and other men for only emotional support/connection, unless they were never near each other, I don't believe this. No offense to the men, but I seriously doubt any man is going to invest that much emotional romance into a relationship if they aren't getting sex. And, even if they were never physically together, there are other ways of having sex, phone sex, sexting, live and recorded video. I'm not buying what she's selling.

I was her main emotional support, even if we were physically far away we were constantly in contact, talked hours, she always gave me the impression of keeping me very close to heart, that's why I was blindsided.

Like you of course I don't believe it. I am not saying she has to be lying, I am saying that even if she is honest, the past lies made it impossible to trust her right now.

That said she had 3 affairs.

#1 - The earliest one being in Germany, most recent DDay, he was a bartender in another city where she was going sometimes with girls. She claims it was mostly a fantasy, the "bar guy who hits on her", that they never kissed or seen outside the bar. They checked back in the dormitory very early because the last train to Bonn was around midnight (I have been there when I visited and I recall it - not in the bar, but the same city -). So it is not impossible she is telling the truth, but I still do not believe it right now. This is the last I found out and the most painful of them all. Not because is "fresh"(I do not care even if it was an army, 1 or a million makes no difference), but because taints with crap even our earliest days together. We just met, "just fell in love" she should have had eyes just for me. And she had space to fit a bartender. I know when it ended, 30th June 2006, no idea when it started. This is the heaviest hit of them all.

#2 - The one that destroyed me. 19 January 2008. She moved out of her parents home, goes out dancing to celebrate, sleeps with a fat rat loser. Divorced with kids. After 2 months of the affair I go there and she destroys me, still denying and lying. Not even 2 weeks after we broke up and he becomes her official boyfriend, their relationship loses attractiveness. She starts regretting and withing 2 months she is trying to get back with me. And I said yes, biggest mistake ever made.

# 3 - A partner in her law firm, 2009 - 2010 we were engaged, I was planning to move to her for life. Again she claims it was a fantasy, until one night at a office ski meeting he kisses her. She tells she stops because she did not expect that was nothing but looks, and soon after he gets another girl (makes her pregnant, fires her and drop her, then moves to another employee does the same, and so on). Even here, I do not believe her, it will be though to get enough trust back.

I felt them all 3, gut feeling. I broke up all 3 times, even if I only knew for sure about #2, I found our communications about our crisis my breaking up with her (I even removed the #3 from my memory but it happened, we found the e-mails and letters). The dates match. I remembered when reading. I remember my gutting pain, my breaking up and her denials (and her asking for help in her communications to her friends).

Again is possible she is telling the truth, like you I do not trust it. I can only note the versions of when she retells, and compare the consistency across and any detail that does not sound right. Lies do always fall short at some point.

Then there are all those small betrayals that still hurt even if they were occasional and of the "inappropriate flirtatious" kind.

However, whether she had or not sex with one or all, whether she was emotionally involved with one or more of those men, it is all the same.

It is cheating, breach of loyalty and trust.

Is like inviting thieves into your shared home. It does not matter if they stole everything or just made a reckon. The duty of both is to keep the common safe space safe. To hold the boundary from intruders.

What truly happened is something I need to know, still fundamentally no matter what level, how sordid she was with these betrayals, is still factually the same.

The cheating begins when crossing the first boundaries, when you let the thief cross your home's door, after that if they cross all the others or just that, is irrelevant for the BS.

It can be more shameful or disgusting for the WS, but for me just one or all the way hurts the attachment wound practically the same.

I was not chosen, Not enough, Replaceable.

She let them in.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 7:06 AM, Monday, February 16th]

This is not a YOU problem. It’s the cheater’s problem. As in the cheater has an issue with honesty and monogamy etc.

Which has nothing to do with you, the betrayed.

Here is my POV. Was I a perfect wife? No I wasn’t. But no one is. But I did my best and gave my H a great life. I put him first and bent over backwards to make sure his he was happy etc.

The fact that he chose to cheat was because of HIM, not me. I honestly believe he would have cheated no matter who he married. The fact that I understand "why" maybe makes it easier to understand.

I think as the betrayed we tend to blame ourselves when in fact, there was very little we could have done to prevent it from happening. Even though the cheater tends to blame the betrayed, that’s just a way of justifying the affair and we all know, there is "no reason" to cheat. Period.

This is not a YOU problem. It’s the cheater’s problem.

Wife, I like you a lot because your answer are always straight to the point. I know you are right. There was a YOU problem ( meaning me) but it have nothing to do with her or me as a young, adult male. It had to do with my inner child, the abandoned at birth me, who was longing for the most important woman in his life, Mom, while she was so distant and dissociated in her depression that I could only admire her from afar.

That's likely my "obsession" with blondes, and maybe emotionally unavailable women. She changed a lot when I was maybe 4 years old (or 5 I have flashbacks but did not really have awareness back then), and she has been the most important person in my earliest life, the only one with whom I could truly connect.

She told me that, she was very introspective and strong after she healed. But the damage was done, I felt like that little child with every human being, male or females, it was very hard to let someone in, because I learned from birth I was undesirable and worthless.

It was a ME problem, the cheater's problem only played into this very wound.

You are right, but is an additional insight.

As in the cheater has an issue with honesty and monogamy etc. Which has nothing to do with you, the betrayed.

I know it does sound absurd but she has no issue with monogamy, honesty yes, monogamy no. I am a close friend of her closest frined (wife of my friend) I heard a lot about her and other girls (they were trying to pair me for some years to have another couple Polish - Italian to go on trips or vacations with, so I was the favorite candidate to match) before ever meeting her.

I heard complaints about how other girls were making a mess of past relationships, by being mistresses of married men, or messing up. She was the "girl next door", modest, shy, intelligent, diligent. She had few boyfriends, all real assholes. The kind of abusive relationships that humiliate a woman, where the guy is not "leading" (in the nice way of a partner) but "directing", like a master with contempt, telling you what you can or cannot do, when, where, what punishment for your mishaps. This kind of trash.

She basically recreated her FOO situation in her past relationships, with her father being cold and imperious, I know because I met her FOO later obviously, and I never seen a gesture of affection or warmth from her parents towards her, only expectation and reprimands. Her father also hated me because I was different, I kept her as a prized girl, with love and respect, I always had her back, and I could look him in the eye while he could not stand my stare. SO he talked a ton of shit behind my back, never in front, and she fought for me with him in her way (submissive, but she never challenged her father ever before). Which made him hate me even more.

That said, with other guys she was completely submissive. Until me she never learned how to make demands, just how to bow her head and please the partner's expectation in any way. She was absolutely monogamous and limerent with these men.

She was not monogamous with me. I am the only one exception. Was it because I am worthless? My trauma made me believe that, but no, today I do not think so. It was because I gave her confidence to stand up for herself, I made her feel desired and respected, when she was down I always had her back, when she was abused by someone I was on her side and she developed the strength to push back and demand respect.

The messed up part of this all is the following: she resented me deeply for this.

I treated her as my equal, possibly often as my better.

She both loved it and hated me for this.

As her therapy puts it recently: I was too close to her emotions, that made her see me as her enemy.

It's messed up and I am just putting out what I know from her therapy.

I don't think it was a toxic attitude from myself, this is the only way I know how be with a woman. My woman is an extension of myself, my equal, my beloved, my vulnerable and strong partner with whom we hold hands.

Probably I am not the kind of man she needs to feel comfort, so she tried to replace me with a "better man" that's why I was the exception to her monogamy.

My previous trauma read this as confirmation of "you are trash Marco. Just a nice box, but empty and worthless inside. That's why you always disappoint people. That's why you deserve to be rejected and alone".

I could not read it with your clarity back then. Even now that voice is still echoing from the past, it will take time to eradicate it forever.

Here is my POV. Was I a perfect wife? No I wasn’t. But no one is. But I did my best and gave my H a great life. I put him first and bent over backwards to make sure his he was happy etc.

I see myself in this. It actually made me grow a lot my relationship with her, because she was hypercritical, I could notice some flaws of my character and I managed to grow and become a better person in many aspects (not all her critics were unjustified, many were spot on). Because I bent over backwards too, to make sure she was happy. I already felt fulfilled with her, her happiness was the fuel to grow and improve, what brought me true joy.

The fact that he chose to cheat was because of HIM, not me. I honestly believe he would have cheated no matter who he married. The fact that I understand "why" maybe makes it easier to understand.

I believe she cheated because of her choices. I am not sure she did not cheat because of me though, not even today. Her cheating was always auditing for a replacement partner. The affairs were to replace ME, with a partner she wanted for life, a "better man". She always chose the affair partner in all 3 affairs (3 afaik, there might be more, no idea as today, we were exactly 1000 miles away - 1600 km).

In affair number 2, where she felt she had a stable relationship, sex, daily life and all. So she broke up with me. She recreated her usual "submissive girlfriend / dominating - abusive boyfriend" relationship with this rat. It was hot until it was clandestine, apparently just 2 weeks after we split she started to regret it, felt unheard, unappreciated and a void. It did not last long, but she factually formed a family with this rat, rejecting our family and future projects of a life together for "the better man", him.

In affair number #1 she kept me around because it was unstable, another long distance relationship, the guy was just closer because it was in another city not another nation.

In affair number #3 she also kept me around because we were engaged, I was planning to move in permanently, and she was not entirely sure it will land, she felt her crush as a fantasy, and she did not want to mess up the "fall back guy" (me) who was packing up his entire life for her, until she had something established with this Other Man. You know, she learned from #2 that is nice to keep an insurance policy, she does not even have to pay for it, I would cover it in full emotionally and with life consequences, she had nothing to lose.

If any of these guys have been serious with her, she would have been absolutely faithful and adoring as she always was in her relationships. She would have married them and live her happiest life.

I did not fit that archetype of man. I was only the "fun lover", like I always felt with my previous "romantic experiences" (all pretty pathetic emotionally speaking). Emotional tampon. Fun to spend holidays with. Nice to show off. Zero worth as a human being.

Monogamy was always on the menu. Just not on the menu I have been served. Because I was not chosen. She chose others.

I think as the betrayed we tend to blame ourselves when in fact, there was very little we could have done to prevent it from happening. Even though the cheater tends to blame the betrayed, that’s just a way of justifying the affair and we all know, there is "no reason" to cheat. Period.

Yes it is true and natural. And the BS is not to blame for a choice they were never able to participate in. The cheater blames the betrayed to displace their shame. There is no reason to cheat, if you are unhappy you leave before starting a new relationship, not after.

There is no justification, only excuses for a sordid behavior.

However I do understand her "reasons" to cheat on me.

- I am not the archetype man she was used to

- She opened up part of herself with me that nobody ever knew, not even her closest friend. Not just the good, also her shadows and ghosts.

- She felt confident, desired and beautiful with me. I was her comfort

- She resented me, she felt me as an enemy

- She could not believe a guy will change his entire life for her, abandon everything and rebuild from zero for her. Because she is not worthy. It will never become real. I "will just use her and drop her when bored" and she will waste her youth.

- Men as partners are all the same, it does not matter who she picks, the value is determined by what they can offer you, and her value is determined by the degree of success in achieving milestones in time. That's what she learned from her parents to get validation. So she should try to get the highest value in the quickest time, and shut up her father about her "wasting her youth"(with me and her work -> rationale of her FOO: she is 23 and is just an associate lawyer, earning well but she "fails" if she does not make partner before 25-27 yo - anyway I guarantee if she made it they will find something else to have contempt for)

- She had me fully, she knew I was loyal, she felt good and she could always recharge herself with me when down. So she could keep me around while she "interviewed" until she finds the best "candidate" for the position she needed filled.

- If everything fails, I will be always the backup plan. She does not need to invest, just instruct me how to prepare to be a better future fail-safe option. I will do the work, she just has to place her demands.

I am aware all you wrote her is the reality.

My attachment wound comes from my traumas, life experiences, childhood wounds.

My history with her only confirmed the deepest fears and insecurities I had forever.

That's why I fell so low for so long, I lost my entire confidence and self worth and became a ghost, a shell of myself, utterly convinced I was less than zero.

Cheating is a deep trauma for everyone.

I just set myself up for the perfect storm. I barely survived. I only managed it by letting that part of myself die.

And now I need to understand the past, it is an autopsy of my previous life.

I think I am growing both emotionally and psychically by doing that, also thanks to you all.

[This message edited by BackfromtheStorm at 8:37 AM, Monday, February 16th]

Here is my experience.

Some people just have a need to relive the trauma or chaos in their lives. I’ve seen it far too often where seemingly rational smart people make choices that just defy logic.

I had 2 business associates that just had to create drama as it was what was known. Without it, they could not function. Tantrums, rages, crying — drama drama drama because it was their comfort zone.

Often unless the issues are addressed, then the pattern continues. For whatever reason. BackFromTheStorm, maybe this applies to your situation.

Here is my experience.

Some people just have a need to relive the trauma or chaos in their lives. I’ve seen it far too often where seemingly rational smart people make choices that just defy logic.

I had 2 business associates that just had to create drama as it was what was known. Without it, they could not function. Tantrums, rages, crying — drama drama drama because it was their comfort zone.

Often unless the issues are addressed, then the pattern continues. For whatever reason. BackFromTheStorm, maybe this applies to your situation.

You described my wife.

That's exactly how my wife functions in her life. She needs chaos and drama whenever things are too simple.
The other coping mechanism is being directed through contempt, exploitation and abuse by an authority figure.

It's very dysfunctional and I see that she grew up in such an environment. It does not excuse her behaviors towards me, but it is pretty sad, I still do feel empathy for her.

She could not get that for me, is not how I function, I don't like chaos or drama.
She tried real hard to piss me off many times, to get a reaction of anger or contempt towards her, like she needed and craved it. Whenever I lost it in an argument, it was hot and soothing to her, but I felt pretty upset because is not the kind of stuff I want in a relationship.

Fighting, teasing, arguing can be healthy sometimes even fun and good for the couple. Drama and chaos are a different thing, I'd say toxic. In the past I reacted to her drama and chaos, often with pain and withdrawal.That played into her push-pull dynamic, it was bad that I was not aware of it.

I changed, today I am responsive but no longer reactive, her patterns of drama and chaos resurface from time to time, but they are falling into thin air, so they are gradually fading, is very rare it happens now, while earlier it was a daily occurrence.

And the new me regulates her.
I still haven't figure out if we still have a shot to a man/wife relationship or a chance to R because is too soon to tell, I don't even know if I will be open to want to ever give another chance to this girl.

No doubt the current relationship surely feels way healthier than the old one.
Because that crap has no place here anymore

No, I will rebuild it will work out, I know my worth.

But I surely took the hit, and she still stands there, justifying her needs and entitlement, while pretending to be a partner. Excusing and taking no accountability.

I feel this. Sending strength.

I feel this. Sending strength.

Thank you This0is0Fine

After all pride and newly gained strength is all we have left after what our partner did to us.

We paid for it dearly, but is a powerful "gift" they gave you.