SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Pogre - Cut the righteous crap! Show me the person who doesn't see the world foremost through his or her own eyes? If you can, then I'll show you a future Saint. I guarantee: your posts read as coming very much from your own perspective!

That's not to say there's no role for challenging oneself to see through another person's eyes--particularly a spouse's. But that doesn't invalidate one's own view.

[This message edited by Unconventional at 5:22 PM, Tuesday, October 13th]

Methinks someone is getting a bit upset. If you prefer, I will bow out of this thread because I seem to have touched a nerve.

Perhaps that nerve is worth examining, tho.

Just sayin'.

I hope your wife understands and this doesn't just add more strife to an already troublesome situation. I really do mean it when I say that I feel for her. I'm not oblivious to your concerns, either, just for the record. I just think your bull in a China shop approach could be tempered significantly. I think you need to slow down and have some more consideration for others in your life.

Good luck.

"Chiefly..?"

Pogre said much of what I was trying to figure out how to express. Understanding trauma and how it affects us is anything but straightforward. SA is such an awful thing that a lot of times, survivors struggle to comprehend how it could have happened to them, much less what happened and what it means for them going forward. Processing it often means thinking about the horrific details, which can produce the same mental and physiologicall responses that occur as when it was happening to them... Basically, it often requires reliving the experience, and feeling like it's happening all over again. It's understandably hard to seek out and engage with that process. A lot of times, the brain just finds it too painful to deal with, so it compartmentalizes and/or suppresses the memory of the SA entirely...

Your W may not even understood what happened to her yet even as an adult getting married, or she could have "forgotten" it entirely and not thought about it when the two of you were getting married. I would encourage you to look for more curiosity about her experience, to seek to understand that kind of trauma in general as well as her specific experience of it, and how she understood it when you got engaged... It might also be more difficult to get her to open up about it after the disclosure of it to the marriage counselor, though. (I don't mean to harp on it, because you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube, so to speak. But how you handle things going forwards is going to be really important to rebuilding trust.)

But before you allow understanding to possibly soothe your present feelings of anger and betrayal... Have you considered any parallels between feeling betrayed about not having had all the relevant information needed for informed consent before you entered into the marital contract, and the way your wife feels after learning that the romantically and sexually monogamous marriage she thought she was participating in wasn't actually romantically monogamous on your part? About how she might feel once she learns, after spending two years reconciling with you with the belief that contact with OW had permanently ceased, that the whole time you were planning on seeking permission to resume contact with her, and predicting marriage-destroying levels of resentment should that permission not be granted? About how she might feel when she's seated across from this MC, who had knowledge about her trauma that she hadn't freely chosen to give them, during a session she attended without being informed that they now know about it?

I can understand wanting support from your MC. But I still think she should have the opportunity for informed consent before she returns to your sessions.

And I think it would probably be really good for you to start seeing an IC to process your own feelings and help you on your recovery journey. I know you said you tried that and didn't think it helped, but the right therapist can really make all the difference. It can take trying out quite a few of them to find the right fit. (I went through about 8 of them myself before I found my current one. She's great, and I'm glad I kept looking until I found her.)

A common thing that WS deal with is realizing that we ought not to try and predict how we think our spouses will feel and whether they can handle the truth, and that we shouldn't withhold any information from them in attempt to manage their exposure and reaction to that truth, even if it means there may be unpleasant consequences for us... When you're married to someone, part of that marital intimacy is allowing the other person to see all of you, and truly know every part of you, your innermost thoughts and feelings included, and trusting that they will still love you and want to be with you afterwards. That's why embracing transparency, radical honestly, and authentic living is such an important part of the recovery and reconciliation process.

I think you ought to discuss with your wife:

1.) Your continued desire to resume contact with the OW.

2.) Your disclosure of her CSA to your marriage counselor. I strongly encourage you to tell her before Thursday's appointment, rather than surprising her with that information during the session. That would give her the opportunity to decide whether she wants to attend, whether she's comfortable continuing with that counselor, and whether she's ready to discuss what happened and how it affects your marriage with the MC

3.) Your need for sex to be experienced as an expression of love. You've said that you need your spouse to experience sex as an expression of love, rather than simply participating in sexual activity to meet your needs. I think she deserves to understand how important that is to you, and whether you consider it a necessary condition for remaining married.

4) Your expectations regarding her CSA recovery and your willingness to wait. You've indicated that you're unwilling to remain indefinitely in the marriage if she doesn't seek professional help. I think you should be honest with her about what that means in practical terms, including how long you're prepared to wait before deciding to leave. (But I also think it's important to recognize that healing from CSA does not necessarily mean she'll come to experience sex the way you want your spouse to experience it. She might work very hard in therapy, make tremendous progress, and still have a fundamentally different relationship with sex than you do.)

5) What are her conditions and expectations for the marriage for her to desire reconciliation with you? We've spent a lot of time talking about your conditions and expectations, but what about hers? Reconciliation has to be continually chosen by both parties, after all. You'll want to make sure both of you are on the same page about what that will look like.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 6:28 PM, Tuesday, October 13th]

I never called you disgusting. I said I was disappointed because I do not think your decision is aligned with marital repair.

I don’t think of things in terms of who is right or who is wrong. I think about what is likely to work with one’s stated goals.

You said your stated goals are to try and repair the marriage and also you would like to have better sexual intimacy in your marriage.

To align those goals you must learn to provide emotional safety to your wife.

The fact that you choose not to do that made me call into question if you are not being honest with yourself about these goals.

I also agree with morbs.

Especially - Please do not let your wife find out about the disclosure of the sexual abuse at the session, completely blindsiding her.

Morb’s list is a good one and whether you realize it or not, what those things read like is you are trying to be the one to control the situation, control what you disclose to her, what she discloses to a professional, this is very much not the way to build the type of emotional safety that would support your stated goals.

I actually disagree. Keeping secrets and withholding material facts from a spouse is a core part of what creates infidelity and destroys trust in the first place.

True reconciliation requires radical honesty and unvarnished transparency. Coming clean, making full amends, and ending the habit of managing what your partner is allowed to know is the only foundation upon which real emotional safety and healing can actually be built. That is the only way things get fixed.

Hikingout,

With deepest respect and admiration I write this regarding this statement

You said your stated goals are to try and repair the marriage and also you would like to have better sexual intimacy in your marriage.

To align those goals you must learn to provide emotional safety to your wife.

I firmly believe his actions were in fact an effort to provide emotional safety to his wife. A greater emotional safety than she has ever yet known since her SA has happened.

His revelation to a professional therapist without her knowledge....may in fact cause her some very short term discomfort....but once "the bandaid is ripped off", I think the likelihood of her feeling relieved is very high.

I again will dispute the fact that "Autonomy" should be the primary foundation of our human relationships. It is very important and crucial. But there are countless examples where if humans are left to their autonomy, they will destroy themselves, or not live to their fullest.

I mean seriously....why is this poster being vilified for this? Seriously.

What is she going to say....?

"My husband confidentially revealed the fact that I was SA to a private, professional therapist with the intent of helping me live a fuller life"

What a crime...🤷

I am being sarcastic of course. As I said before, I would wager that after a short time of discomfort, this poor woman will feel a sense of relief that her husband had the guts and love to make a decision against her fearful will....allowing her to finally get some help and understanding of how that trauma has affected her all her life.

Peace ✌️

[This message edited by WoodThrush2 at 9:13 PM, Tuesday, October 13th]

That argument presupposes:

1) That this disclosure actually causes her to get help... She could very well withdraw even further into silence, which may feel safer to her after this,

2) That Unconventional knows what's better for her than she does for herself, and that she's incapable of choosing "correctly" for herself,

and 3) That she actually ends up grateful for the push. She may not.

ETA: 5) that there weren't equally effective ways of going about this that still allowed her control over who knows

Edit two: Skipped 4 because uh, free will! autonomehhh 😎

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 10:58 PM, Tuesday, October 13th]

Have you considered any parallels between feeling betrayed about not having had all the relevant information needed for informed consent before you entered into the marital contract, and the way your wife feels after learning that the romantically and sexually monogamous marriage she thought she was participating in wasn't actually romantically monogamous on your part?

My M has stayed romantically and sexually monogamous. It became not emotionally monogamous--and that's where I went astray. I have taken note that I betrayed my W's trust, yes. I committed infidelity--just not an affair/adultery. Betrayal sucks. I regret having caused my W pain.

Have you considered... how she [your W] might feel once she learns, after spending two years reconciling with you with the belief that contact with OW had permanently ceased, that the whole time you were planning on seeking permission to resume contact with her, and predicting marriage-destroying levels of resentment should that permission not be granted?

Yes--although, with the caveat that my W and MC both know--because I told them so explicitly months ago--that I retain "hope" of rebuilding a friendship with my OW.

Have you considered... how she [your W] might feel when she's seated across from this MC, who had knowledge about her trauma that she hadn't freely chosen to give them, during a session she attended without being informed that they now know about it?

I can understand wanting support from your MC. But I still think she should have the opportunity for informed consent before she returns to your sessions.

I had been planning to address my W's disclosures as the very first topic after greetings at our very first MC session after having updated our MC about my W's disclosures to me. We usually see our MC online from our home anyhow, so if my W wants to storm out of the room, she can do so immediately anyhow. But, because you have recommended this course, I will do so.

I think it would probably be really good for you to start seeing an IC to process your own feelings and help you on your recovery journey.

I have been feeling I should re-explore that, too.

I think you ought to discuss with your wife:

1.) Your continued desire to resume contact with the OW.

I have been considering that. Literally earlier today. I might, indeed, broach this topic again well before 2 full years have elapsed, but I think my wish to resume contact with my OW need to be handled well after the issues raised principally in this thread.

I think you ought to discuss with your wife:

2.) Your disclosure of her CSA to your marriage counselor. I strongly encourage you to tell her before Thursday's appointment, rather than surprising her with that information during the session. That would give her the opportunity to decide whether she wants to attend, whether she's comfortable continuing with that counselor, and whether she's ready to discuss what happened and how it affects your marriage with the MC

I accept your advice, but will broach the subject on Thursday before the MC session.

I think you ought to discuss with your wife:

3.) Your need for sex to be experienced as an expression of love. You've said that you need your spouse to experience sex as an expression of love, rather than simply participating in sexual activity to meet your needs. I think she deserves to understand how important that is to you, and whether you consider it a necessary condition for remaining married.

Agreed. That topic has been on my agenda for this Thursday afternoon's MC session.

I think you ought to discuss with your wife:

4) Your expectations regarding her CSA recovery and your willingness to wait. You've indicated that you're unwilling to remain indefinitely in the marriage if she doesn't seek professional help. I think you should be honest with her about what that means in practical terms, including how long you're prepared to wait before deciding to leave. (But I also think it's important to recognize that healing from CSA does not necessarily mean she'll come to experience sex the way you want your spouse to experience it. She might work very hard in therapy, make tremendous progress, and still have a fundamentally different relationship with sex than you do.)

I reiterate: My demand is not for "success" or any specific degree or speed of progress, but for effort. If my W were to call today to secure an appointment with a qualified professional, she might not be offered a first consultation for 6 months--or even a year! I would hope appointments for survivors of CSA would be easier to secure than that, but all I need to see is an earnest effort to seek healing and an unwillingness to abandon the effort. With that much, I will wait til death do us part.

I believe love can be conveyed through a thousand different ways in sex. Playful sex. Romantic sex. Rough sex. Quickie sex. Not every act will be transcendental for the most connected and tantric of spouses--even when such partners try for it. So, I possess no absurdist insistence that, some day, every time my W and I make love, it'll be a "spiritual experience." If not every time will be profound, then it's ok if many times fall short of that experience. That's merely a difference in degree. My concern is over a gap in kind--and is really more about an openness to trying to convey and receive love in sex than it is about what actually is experienced. What I find unacceptable is her telling me: Because of my CSA, I have never felt love within sex and never will--so that's just how it's gonna be. Deal with it!

I think you ought to discuss with your wife:

5) What are her conditions and expectations for the marriage for her to desire reconciliation with you? We've spent a lot of time talking about your conditions and expectations, but what about hers? Reconciliation has to be continually chosen by both parties, after all. You'll want to make sure both of you are on the same page about what that will look like.

I agree. My W hasn't been very vocal on that front--and yes, I have asked. She has said things like: She can't have me counting on contacting my OW on a fixed deadline. I will try to elicit more concrete goals from her.

[This message edited by Unconventional at 11:05 PM, Tuesday, October 13th]

My M has stayed romantically and sexually monogamous. It became not emotionally monogamous--and that's where I went astray. I have taken note that I betrayed my W's trust, yes. Betrayal sucks.

Fair-- I suppose "romantic" implies two-party participation, and that's not what happened. I was using "romantic infidelity" and "emotional infidelity" interchangeably and they're not necessarily synonymous. But you get the point, right? What you're feeling now is similar to how she's likely feeling, though maybe with a difference in magnitude.

Yes--although, with the caveat that my W and MC both know--because I've told them so explicitly months ago--that I retain "hope" of rebuilding a friendship with my OW.

"Hope of rebuilding a friendship" is not exactly the same as "having a plan as to how long to wait before asking for permission to rebuild that friendship"

But, because you have recommended this course, I will do so.

I have been feeling I should re-explore that, too.

Agreed. That topic is on my agenda for this Thursday afternoon's MC session.

I agree. My W hasn't been very vocal on that front--and yes, I have asked. She has said things like: She can't have me counting on contacting my OW on a fixed deadline. I will try to elicit more concrete goals from her.

👍👍

Morbs,

You also are entirely presupposing all aspects of the outcome.

Neither of us really know the outcome.

The only thing we know for sure is she did not want CSA disclosed.

I have opinion that OP did right thing and has good intentions.

You and most others think he did wrong thing, irrespective of intentions.

I would add a bit of information to my "qualifications" in this matter. My wife was SA as a child over the course of several years. I see and have come to understand how it has affected her. It has for the most part caused her to be avoidant and able to "put things in the vault" as we have coined it. I have over the course of our marriage, helped her with healing, and at times done things she said not to do (related to personal development).

Examples...Registering us up for a virtual Polarity retreat, Coordinating and registering us for sex therapy, Purchasing her "marital" aids. All these things done "outside" of her "autonomy". And you know what, she has been greatly benefitted because of those things.

If I had taken her wishes with a radical view of "Autonomy"...there is much growth we would have missed.

For what it's worth ....

[This message edited by WoodThrush2 at 11:08 PM, Tuesday, October 13th]

Fair-- I suppose "romantic" implies two-party participation, and that's not what happened. I was using "romantic infidelity" and "emotional infidelity" interchangeably and they're not necessarily synonymous. But you get the point, right? What you're feeling now is similar to how she's likely feeling, though maybe with a difference in magnitude.

Yes, I do get your point. My point, though, was not about directionality.

Romantic infidelity is: Exclusivity... "I love yous"... "No one understands me like you dos"... Physical compliments...

Emotional infidelity is: "I feel so lonely tonight. I wish my W would tell me sometimes that she loves me."

My lived relationship with my OW was characterized by the latter in spades--but by none of the former.

"Hope of rebuilding a friendship" is not exactly the same as "having a plan as to how long to wait before asking for permission to rebuild that friendship"

Agreed. Fully. And I wrestle with the timeline. I go back and forth on that point. I ache to reconnect with my OW. That's the drive behind the urgency. On the other hand, my OW said she won't agree to friendship until I have regained integrity and my W has agreed to the friendship. Plus, I actually don't want to hurt my W again and I genuinely want the friendship to be merely a friendship--ordered... bounded... less than it used to be. That part of me says: Woah! Slow down, partner! The timeline I originally created was 1 year. Over time, that has become 2 years because experts all seem to say it takes that long to heal from an A. But I definitely have days--lots of 'em, TBH--when the idea of living out 2 years with this ache inside of me feels absolutely impossible.

[This message edited by Unconventional at 11:19 PM, Tuesday, October 13th]

I have considered multiple outcomes and decided that the possibility of a positive outcome doesn't justify unauthorized disclosure, and the negative outcomes that most likely go along with that unauthorized disclosure outweighed the decision to disclose. I don't believe the end justified the means here.

As they say, "The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Anyway. It is done. Unconventional sounds like he is moving forward from this with greater care, which is good. As I said, I am hoping it goes exactly the way you are describing, and everyone's distress is minimal.

----

Emotional infidelity is: "I feel so lonely tonight. I wish my W would tell me sometimes that she loves me."

That's not infidelity. "I love my 'friend' as more than a friend and she has replaced my W as my primary emotional support. I'm going to continue interacting with her in secret despite my W's explicit protest" is infidelity of the emotional sort.

[This message edited by GotTheMorbs at 11:25 PM, Tuesday, October 13th]

Emotional infidelity is: "I feel so lonely tonight. I wish my W would tell me sometimes that she loves me."

That's not infidelity.

Well, that’s what I had. That, and:

she has replaced my W as my primary emotional support. I'm going to continue interacting with her in secret despite my W's explicit protest"

And it’s sure as Hell being treated like infidelity.

As for this:

I love my 'friend' as more than a friend

I had thoughts like that internally for less than 72 hours in the course of a nine month relationship and never discussed them with my OW until I disclosed them to soften the blow of saying goodbye. Granted, we did get back together as friends, and my wife certainly rode my ass for communicating with my OW, but over that time, I repeatedly apologized and acknowledged to my friend that the romantic thoughts I had discovered and disclosed were inappropriate and a mistake.

As God is my witness, that’s as far as it went!

[This message edited by Unconventional at 11:48 PM, Tuesday, October 13th]

It is okay to experience loneliness and unmet needs, but the latter part constitutes infidelity. I don't think it matters for how long you had unrequited romantic feelings for OW nor whether you kept them to yourself until you intended (and then failed) to end the friendship. The point is that she asked you if your W would be bothered by your closeness, you considered that and thought "probably" and then you kept interacting with her until you caught feelings. The catching feelings part is what's bad. Spouses who want 'emotional monogamy' do not want their partners to fall in love with people who are not them.

hold on a second, Morbs—

now, I get the sense you are endorsing a standard of infidelity that flexes based upon how jealous a spouse gets.

when you started to "catch feelings" for your AP, is that the point when your relationship with your AP became infidelity? Or was it when you and/or he started sexting? Or when? Can we not assess where the line was crossed without interviewing your H for his definition of infidelity first?

Yeah, I thought to myself: my W probably would be bothered, but this is a friendship and harmless because we live across an ocean from each other (and my pecker’s not that long ) and neither my OW nor I would ever engage in sexting or transmitting sexual images!

In point of fact, what I actually forecasted wouldn’t happen never happened!

[This message edited by Unconventional at 12:26 AM, Wednesday, October 14th]