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I wrote a post a while ago, about the great steps my WH has taken to in an effort to R. Well, where we are now is an entirely different story. Our marriage is once again toxic and possibly abusive. It has almost been three years since Dday.

When things get tough, he STILL reacts with defensiveness, anger and zero empathy. He suffers with victim mentality. He cannot respond these ways, and still be a remorseful spouse. The two simply don't go hand in hand.

And he still lies. After promising to never never ever lie to me again because he doesn't want to ever let our girls down again, he lies (not affair related). Small things. He will still dig a hole (crater), to the point when I am so angry because I know that he is lying, that I angrily tell him that I hate him. He will then angrily tell me he hates me back. All because he is trying to cover up the lie he just told. Who on earth is willing to go to such lengths to cover up a stupid white lie and risk damaging their already fragile marriage and their wife's mental health in the process?

He is now severely minimising this knee Jerk reaction he still has, because he wants to avoid conflict. However, he agrees it's something he still needs to work on. But he fails to really tackle the concept that he has been vowing to me, for around a year now, that these knee jerk responses have been dealt with and are no longer an issue of his. But clearly it is an issue, because he is still doing it. But of course according to him, he has only just now realised that it is still a problem (since me catching him out a few days ago), but he didn't realise it was a problem in the past year. Sure.

It is still his responses to these issues that hurt me the most. He should really be on his hands and knees, pulling out all the stops. And yet when a few half arsed "I'm sorry, let me know if I can get you anything" messages don't soften me, he resorts to behaving like a victim and he ignores me!?

When I tell him that he is hurting everyone around him with this continued actions (myself and our kids), he scoffs and eye rolls. Remorseful? Really? When I then flash in response, grab his phone off him and call him a horrible name, he labels me/my behaviour "disgusting" and tells me to "stay in my line". Yet refuses to acknowledge the serious non-verbal contempt he just displayed towards me that prompted that reaction?

When I then run off upstairs and cry in the bathroom so my kids and their cousin who is currently staying with us doesn't see me this way, he follows me up and unlocks the door from the outside. And yet more bullshit spews from his mouth! When I tearfully/angrily tell him he is still a liar, does he respond by calmly acknowledging this is actually factually correct? No no no. He responds by telling me "see THIS is the problem!" (me). When I BEG him to just leave me alone as clearly he is never going to get it, and I need to calm myself down, he refuses and just stands in the bathroom door way. He's stood there calmly, arms folded, still eye rolling and scoffing at points, where I become more and more angry. I become more distressed and tearful, to the point I am putting my fingers in my ears because I physically cannot listen to his voice and his sheer lack of insight any longer. I want to scream, but of course I can't. The previous promises of "I promise in future to leave you alone when you ask" - nope, out the window. Instead, as I become more and more irrational, begging him to leave me alone but whilst trying desperately to keep my voice down, I hit myself because of how angry I feel and am being given no option to de-escalate and calm down. I am literally frothing at the mouth at this point, and he tries to goad "go on, hit me". I don't. I continue to beg to be left alone so I can calm myself down. He then asks to RECORD my insane meltdown (sadly this is not the first time - and he actually did this before. Apparently he was really sorry about that). He claims this is for "self protection", incase I accuse him or claim something happened that did not. This has never even happened?!

He only left when I resorted to scratching my arm with my own nails and I have now been left with cuts 😣 All I wanted was to be left alone so I could calm myself down from his ridiculous comments and frustrating lack of insight so our children and their cousin did not hear!!

He has now stated over message, that that's "not his doing". Zero accountability to yet another broken promise of "I promise to leave you alone when you ask me to".

I calmed myself down when he left me alone. Am puffy eyed from crying. Yet when I am calm, he attempts to again restart the conversation. I would not mind having a conversation about it - but when I calmly explain how I am feeling about the lying, that clearly it is still an issue and it has been all this time, and that he continues to break his promises of responding with empathy, no defensiveness, leaving me alone when I ask - he deflects, will not accept accountability, is full of excuses. The tables are then turned on me - I'm the one who is acting like a victim, I am being entitled, if I choose to end this then it's all on me, I'm not trying hard enough?! I don't know how these words can actually leave his mouth!!!

This again leads to more anger and frustration from me, I whacked myself with my own shoes and was then angrily told that he thinks I should leave as he doesn't think I should be around the kids!!! I go and grab my bag as all I want is to be left alone, and he proceeds to block the door (again, something he has promised he wouldn't do again). I've been told "how do you think it is acceptable to speak to me the way you have, and spit at me" (I did not spit at him - I spittled in a cursing rage, begging him to leave me alone - I get the impression he really wants me to spit at him, or hit him - so he can be the victim he feels he is). He will not accept that he refused to leave me alone, like he promised he would.

Finally he leaves me be, but continues to stomp around the house banging stuff, with me pleading for him to just stop as the kids will hear!! He then goes up stairs and says something to the kids and comes back down stairs, stating "there you go, you've got your wish" (I almost want to vomit from fear that he has just gone up and told our girls infront of their cousin that we are getting a divorce - he knows this is what he was implying and what my fear was). But then he said "just that we have to leave in 15 minutes to take cousin home". Huh... How is that "getting my wish?". Manipulation is what springs to mind.

I have tried and tried and tried to get him to see that the way he handles situations is what has caused the majority of the failed R, and that he simply cannot be considered even slightly remorseful when this is his behaviour. He has posted numerous times on SI, with everyone telling him that his behaviour is damaging and needs to stop. But he can never ever see it at the time. He will eventually accept his behaviour, and make numerous promises of change. But it never actually happens.

I am now a broken mess, again. I know I cannot heal with this man in my life. I am left again feeling so incredibly hurt and let down by him and his broken promises. But I also feel I have let myself down again, by allowing my rage to overcome me and resort to hurting myself and behaving in a way that is not in line with my values. Sometimes when he behaves this way I shut down and simply agree with everything he says, that I need to recognise his efforts more etc etc. I don't believe it for a second, but I comply with what he's saying to stop the argument, calm myself down and pray the kids aren't affected.

I have stopped drinking completely now which I am super proud of, as I recognise it wasn't healthy and it kept me stuck and scab picking. But I can feel my resolve weakening on this. I don't feel I am ever going to heal with this man in my life if he just cannot change - but my kids are my world and I would do anything for them. I can't face hurting them. It traumatised them when he left during the A, I can't face that conversation with them again. And whenever divorce is mentioned he resorts to comments like "you're going to destroy them", "I'll phone the solicitors now then shall I?" and "you think life is going to be better for you, but it won't" (emotional blackmail).

When things are OK between us, he is loving, doting and would do anything for me. The thing is, I know he wants this to work more then anything - it just seems he is unable to actually make the changes that are required to make that happen.

I apologise if not much of this makes sense 😔

I read every word of your post and I want to start off by saying I’m sad to read how you are suffering and being mistreated and NOT being respected by the former cheating spouse.

I hate to say this, but you are suffering at the hands of an abuser. The taunting and mocking, the chasing you in the house when you lock yourself in the bathroom, all of it, sadly, is abuse.

I’m going to suggest you stop calling him out on his lies. You are spending far too much emotional energy trying to get an irrational person to admit the truth.

You are correct in saying he has some serious issues that causes him or allows him to have a knee jerk reaction and lie.

But obviously he doesn’t want to hear it — especially from you. So maybe you should stop calling him out on his crap.

Now that doesn’t mean you need to believe his lies. You just need to stop challenging him.

Maybe some professional counseling for you would be helpful. It might give you coping strategies to learn how to handle the constant stress from the lying.

From there, it might be helpful to start to plan your future and decide if you are better off with him or without him. If you decide without, then maybe it’s time to get a plan together to leave the marriage some day.

Please continue to post here so we can support you. I am very concerned about your situation b/c it is not easy for you to live like this without it impacting you in done way (beyond what you have endured).

Hope this helps you.

Your kids don't deserve to grow up in this hostile, toxic environment, nor should they ever have reason to feel guilty that you stayed in it for their sake.

Further, you should really think about how much time, energy, and attention your man-child of a husband is siphoning off that should be dedicated to your kids. I'm willing to bet that, even if you had to share custody with your husband 50% of the time post divorce, you would still be 100x more engaged with and emotionally available to your children as a mother than you are right now.

There have been numerous posts in the General forum lately about people who stopped trying to actively reconcile with their WSs and just remain in "marriages of convenience." If this is the option you choose, then you could probably achieve relative peace at home by following 1stWife's advice to stop asking questions and/or calling him out on his lies. But that still won't eliminate the risks of remaining legally, financially, and emotionally tied to a person you can't trust. He's abandoned you and the kids before; he could do it again.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 8:00 PM, Thursday, April 17th]

I agree with T1W. I'm so sorry that you're in this predicament, but I do think that there are things that you can do to shift the dynamic, take back your power, and ease the tension.

My first inclination is to advise that you start working hard on mentally detaching from him; detaching from the situation; detaching from a desired outcome. Accept the reality of the situation today: that he lies; can't keep his promises; is self-centered and abusive; that you're not ready to leave. You're trying to push a boulder up a hill by yourself and it keeps rolling back down over you. Consciously let that boulder lie where it lies (oh look, a pun!) and continue on your journey without it. Cultivate indifference to his shenanigans.

That might look like responding to one of his white lies with a calm "Okay" and then going on about your day. You know it's a lie, he knows it's a lie, but it's not going to suck up all your energy and ruin your day. Because, after all, he's shown you repeatedly that he's incapable of being honest, why would today be any different? He's showing you who he is, and you therefore know who you're dealing with. Let it be what it is and don't try to change it. Trying to change it (him) is where the stress lies.

Don't engage with him when he's taunting you. He's getting something out of getting you all worked up. Otherwise he'd leave you alone. Do your absolute best to not let him have that.

You basically need to do the 180. For you.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 10:29 PM, Thursday, April 17th]

Agree with all the posters that you are going to have to detach from the situation and stop expecting anything different from him. I would also practice gray rock which is not reacting to him, commenting, arguing, defending yourself, just keep answers simple and go about your day.

I also agree that he is emotionally abusive. He may even have traits of a personality disorder the way he keeps deflecting and turning the blame on you. It's very hard to live with someone like this and I hope you find a therapist to help you cope through this.

Unfortunately I don't see anything positive in saving the M. I understand how hard it is to leave. Maybe start planning what your exit might look like and months or years down the line if nothing changes or you feel your mental health is getting worse you will have the arsenal you need to leave.

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 10:07 PM, Thursday, April 17th]

WhiskeyBlues, I'm so sorry. What a nightmare.

This sounds less like reconciliation and more like a toxic relationship. Physically blocking the exit to a room is a form of abuse.

I also want to say - very gently - that you need to own your rage. Yes, he is trying to provoke you, but you don't need to respond. You know that, and sometimes you are able to do the smile-and-nod to avoid getting into an argument with him. That's really good! Try to do that every time. Much like a misbehaving child, he wants that reaction from you. The two of you then enter into a negative feedback loop where you're making each other more angry, but you're also getting adrenaline from the fight and endorphins from the pain.

The fact that you are hurting yourself to cope (I did this too, but not in front of my WS) shows that you need to get yourself out of this situation. I think you know this. Yes, divorce/separation will hurt your children, and yes, he will try to paint you as the "bad guy" for doing it, but that's part of his emotional manipulation and abuse. You have no reason to feel guilty - it's his actions that have landed you both in this awful mess.

I don't feel I am ever going to heal with this man in my life if he just cannot change - but my kids are my world and I would do anything for them. I can't face hurting them. It traumatised them when he left during the A, I can't face that conversation with them again. And whenever divorce is mentioned he resorts to comments like "you're going to destroy them", "I'll phone the solicitors now then shall I?" and "you think life is going to be better for you, but it won't" (emotional blackmail).

When things are OK between us, he is loving, doting and would do anything for me. The thing is, I know he wants this to work more then anything - it just seems he is unable to actually make the changes that are required to make that happen.

I understand you don't want to hurt your children, but right now, their mother is hurting herself (the scratching, the shoe, the screaming in your head), and I don't think they'd want that if they knew. Yes, we would set ourselves on fire to keep our children warm, but at some point, we will burn out. And then who will warm them?

I really do feel for you, and I've been where you are, so I get it. I spent 3 years going to bed every night wishing that I would die in my sleep - anything to escape this nightmarish life without having to take responsibility for inflicting pain on others (including my WS). Just a couple weeks after making the decision to physically separate, I went to bed one night and realized that I was actually looking forward to the next day.

In any abusive situation, there will be good days and bad days. Otherwise the choice to walk away would be easy. In the end, it doesn't matter what he wants or what he believes. All that matters are his actions, and you've said it yourself multiple times in your own post. I think you know what you need to do, even though it's tearing you up in side.

This is a terrible situation for you and he is being abusive. This is said as gently as possible, but when you rage, name call, hurt yourself, he could use this later against you, he could possibly be planning to do that now. Please get some help from someone who can help you gain coping skills so that you don't lose it. For your sake, for your children's sake. Put an inside lock on another room in the house, so that he can't unlock the door if you need time to calm yourself. You have to take your power back, his actions are awful and you can't control them, the only thing you can control is your actions.

Thank you so much for all of your support and words of wisdom. You are all absolutely correct that I need to seriously detach from him - continuing this is just hurting myself and our children.

I feel the issue is that when I have detached in the past (perhaps not as successfully as I thought?), his shitty behaviour obviously stops. Because he really is only vile when it comes to the A related/lying situation. Genuinely, as a normal every day partner, he is amazing and I couldn't want for more. At least this is what I thought until this evening. So, when the shitty behaviour stops, I again see the kind, caring husband who is still reading his book on victim mentality or listening to his podcasts to dig deep. And so I begin to soften and I start to believe in the changes he's making. Until the cycle repeats.

So this evening he has said that he lies to me because he is scared of me (not me - I am literally half his size). He says he fears my judgement, and that is why he has knee jerk reactions to lie. But he claims to have only just realised this. Huh.... We have had this discussion numerous times - this knee jerk reaction lying is something he has done our whole marriage in response to really minor things, and then he digs a hole. We have discussed at length how this probably stems from his childhood, after recalling the first lie he ever told his parents. He lied for fear of getting into trouble. I told him he needs support in figuring this out, as he compulsion to lie over little things is simply not my doing. He responded that he did not need help, and believes that if he entered into a new relationship, he would not feel the need to lie as he would have a fresh start and not be thought of as a cheat. Hmmm. So I said that it appears he is trying to blame shift his issues on to me, and he should consider that if THAT is the way he feels about me (that I am that terrible he has to lie over minor things), then maybe that explains his lack of empathy toward me and this level of resentment I have always felt he had towards me. That was me "making assumptions". No, it's something he needs to consider is maybe true. I know if I felt the need to lie and felt "scared of them/their reaction", I would probably be holding an underlying ill-placed resentment towards them. He even said at one point, when I asked "why couldn't be just be honest with me", that he's "been in this relationship long enough to know it will be a problem". But yet again, claims this is not blame shifting and fully accepts the lying is his problem alone.

I was crying ALOT in this conversation and I said tearfully "can you not see what you're doing to me". His response was "Mmmhm". "Mmmhm"? Are you kidding me?! I think I would get more empathy from a rock.

Anyway, he's done something this evening that he really helped me in moving forward. It's a tangible level of selfishness and complete disregard for me, that really has helped me see underneath the mask.

So I have not had a drink in over two months. It is a really big deal for me and I've been so pleased with myself. WH was never a big drinker - he is the type to eat his feelings. So in support of me, he was not drinking either. I don't do well with alcohol in the house, but have made it clear that if he wants a drink, I don't mind at all. He was insistent that he join me in not drinking. How sweet, I was grateful for his support. Like I said, I'd been doing well and was not even finding it difficult. I told him I felt the habit had been broken, and that the only trigger of mine was when we had these arguments and I feel let down. It is as if my brain automatically knows what will make me feel better (although of course we know that's not true). So earlier I tearfully asked if he could please go out and get me something to drink. He very firmly, almost seemingly angrily, told me no and that he refuses to sabotage me in that way (does he see the irony?). An hour or so goes by and I am mostly glad he did not go to the shop for me. I go to the fridge to get some milk for a cup of tea and oh, he had bought himself some beers earlier after dropping off his neice!!! 😭 I felt the bottom drop out of me and just felt myself turn to stone. I asked him about the beers - cue the eye rolling, sighing and "what was I supposed to do"? Knowing that this situation was the biggest trigger of mine, and how much I have struggled, he brought alcohol home for himself!!!! I received another one of his famous, empty, apology texts, saying that he didn't even think he would see me for the rest of the evening and he "needed something to take the edge off" - he has never ever been that way about alcohol!!! He eats his pain away. So any "craving" could only have been minor, but was clearly worth more to him then me.

The again sheer lack of respect or care for what that would do to me. This action speaks volumes to me as to how much I really mean to him 😔

I don't really feel angry, I just feel so crushed. It's proof. Proof that he doesn't give a toss, despite his claims. That underneath the mask is still a very selfish, damaged, manipulative husk.

I will actively work at detaching from him. Does anyone have any advice for this? I worry that it will make the house toxic for my children, but in a different way then it currently is. The will notice the lack of communication, or affection. What should I do for days out that we had planned for easter? Do I go and try to be OK with him for their sake? Thinking of how this will affect them is truly soul destroying.

I will actively work at detaching from him. Does anyone have any advice for this?

This does not have to be a fight or obvious to your children. You can keep your home as stress free as possible.

Here are my suggestions:

1. No more discussions about his lying. Period.

2. No more discussions about your feelings. Period.

3. You have very superficial conversations - weather, kids, books, weekend plans, dinner, movies, ANYTHING but your relationship or feelings or whatever else brings up the "issues".

4. You are polite yet detached.

5. You are concerned but not rushing in to fix things or help him with errands or favors.

And lastly, you tell him there is a NO ALCOHOL tile in the house. No exceptions. If he cannot abide by it, then he needs to move out.

Do not go back in this or give in even one time. As you stated,

So any "craving" could only have been minor, but was clearly worth more to him then me.

The again sheer lack of respect or care for what that would do to me. This action speaks volumes to me as to how much I really mean to him 😔

I don't really feel angry, I just feel so crushed. It's proof. Proof that he doesn't give a toss, despite his claims. That underneath the mask is still a very selfish, damaged, manipulative husk.

You need to start putting yourself first. And for the sake of your children YOU ARE THE ROLE MODEL you need/want them to see.

This doesn’t have ti be obvious to your kids. I did it when I planned to D my H. My kids had no idea. In front of my kids I was my usual self. When they weren’t around I didn’t engage w/ him.

It will take some getting used to, but you can do this. It’s not being mean. It’s protecting yourself.

Hope this helps you.

I think you should keep your weekend plans - just present a pleasant but detached you to him, and the best mom and family member to everyone else.

[This message edited by The1stWife at 1:45 AM, Friday, April 18th]

He likes to get a rise out of you. Don't give him his fix.

You don't have to make a big show of detaching. It's much, much more important that it be an internal change in you. He can keep on doing whatever it is he does; your job is to change your internal response to it. Take a step back, take a deep breath, and take a good hard look at what's really going on with your dynamic. You're already doing that, but focus on your reactions. Your behavior. What can you do to break yourself out of this cycle and to not allow him to hijack your emotions? He's running your show. He might even subconsciously enjoy the excitement. Take your control back. Do your best to not let him get you worked up. Don't tell him that's what you're doing. Just do it. See what comes up for you.

Your kids feel the tension and toxicity. They are attuned to it. And they are learning that this is what relationships look/feel like. Is that what you want them to learn? You gray -rocking will feel MUCH better to them. The tension will leave the home.
I like the idea of treating your husband like a roommate. You are polite, courteous and normal. Just not more.

Are you in IC? That may help with ways to manage your anger and deal with your WS while you decide your next steps.

I agree with the others who’ve said that they think he’s enjoying the intense emotional reactions that he is able to get out of you.

I also think that you’ve become addicted to the highs and lows of this drama-fueled relationship, even though you know it’s destroying you physically and mentally.

It’s your life and you can live it however you choose. But your kids have no choice about the environment in which they grow up; do you think the one they’re currently in is optimal for their emotional and mental health?

I will actively work at detaching from him.

Detaching is the opposite of doing something. It is the not doing of something. The stopping of asking, of caring.

If you find yourself "actively detaching" then you are probably just attaching in a different way. You might purposely ignore him, then intensely watch (the opposite of 8gnoring) to see if and how he responds to being ignored, which if he does respond will validate your importance (I ignored him…it had an effect…he cares…I am somebody).

If you are actually detaching, you will be moving towards if I no longer care. He’s just furniture.

Watch yourself closely. Are you using him as a mirror to see yourself? Is there really something down deep that is subliminally thinking at least he cares enough to jerk me around? To validate me?

I agree with the others, that I think that he likes to get you going. As you're detaching, this will upset him, and he may come at you even more than he has.

Look up grey rock and figure out how to do it. That will help you to detach. It will be hard at first, but it does get easier with time and will hopefully give you and the kids a more peaceful environment.

Oh sounds hard and very similar to me. I wish I also didn’t get drawn into it all and calling him out. It doesn’t help anyone and just makes everything so toxic for everyone. I don’t know how to stop it

I don’t know how to stop it

You stop it by not engaging in it. You have to be detached from your WS and you cannot react, justify or explain anything to them. Basically you're roommates and all conversations will be simple and boring. It's not an ideal M. It can be sustained until you are ready to leave but I wouldn't stay in this kind of situation indefinitely. When you get to this point with your spouse IMO the M is basically over, you're just still under the same roof.

I meant to add that I am sorry he just isn’t getting it. And that you are going through this. It really is HARD and we understand that our words make it sound easier than it is.

But since he won’t change, it will have to be you. Sending strength and virtual (((hugs))).

I don’t know how to stop it

One small step at a time. As often as you can, remind yourself to just look at him for a moment. Set aside the emotional charge that comes with your relationship with him, and just see him with fresh eyes. Watch him like you’ve never seen him before, like he’s a stranger I guarantee you’ll learn things.

Without fail, you’ll slouch back into seeing him through the lens of the spouse, judging everything he does as to how it impacts you. That’s OK, it’s inevitable, but just keep reminding yourself as often as you can to step back and watch him like a stranger. A few seconds here, a minute there.

By definition when you watch him this way, you are detaching. That does two critical things, first it eases the pain that he causes you, second it allows you to see the truth. The more you do it, the more you find yourself wanting to do it.

Sending strength!